Okay. So, so excited to introduce our next guest who has worked with One Direction, Paloma Faith, Christina Perry, the Libertine, Sean Mendez, Shania Twain, lady Gaga, and of course, was behind the, the career of Ed Sheeran as well. please would you all go wild and crazy for Jake Gosling?  Take A seat.

Thank you very much.  Hello?  Oh, We lost the rugby.  Sorry. Spoiler alert.  Sorry. Spoiler alert. Yeah, And you know that movie, don’t you movie that what happens at the end, right? Is, So, Jake, thanks so much for joining us, mate. just delighted to have you here and really keen to find out, I mean, you’ve had a long career in the music business, and you were just saying to me downstairs that, you know, you, you came from a musical background as well.

So before we start talking about sort of pop and all of that stuff, tell us, tell us how it all happened for you and yeah, when did you first fall in love with music? You know, what’s, what’s, what was your journey at the beginning? I think, I think the sort of, you know, it was, I was, you know, a kid surrounded with it. I think, you know, maybe for a lot of people, similar stuff. And when you’re surrounded with music, your parents and  stuff like that, you’re sort of naturally, my, my, my dad was a, a keyboard player, in bands and stuff like that.

and it, I couldn’t escape it. I mean, it was like, he was managed by Bill Wyman from The Stones. Right. in a band. It didn’t really sort of kick off for him. and he was always quite wary. And he, there, there quite a few sharks in those days. mean, you know, there’s still a few around now, Really Well, apparently, which we are aware of. But, yeah, I, I think it was like being surrounded with that sort of world and he was, you know, I showed a real interest in music.

I wasn’t that technical, I mean, in terms of like playing and stuff. I mean, I could play and I, I, I’d be given like, you know, piano stuff to play and I’d sort of go off of my own world and start sort of doing other things, not really knowing what I was doing. But I think that sort of started forming, I guess experimenting with, with I guess songs and stuff like that. Yeah. and do you read, Do you read Music? Well, I, I did a little, but I wasn’t very good at it. I only got to grade five.

Right. in my piano and, I think I did the flute right. Which was not that exciting, but, grade two. Yay. but, no, it was, it was like, you know, I, I guess, I guess that whole, it was always inputting and there was always something around, and I loved art, I loved drawing, I loved painting and stuff that Right. so there was definitely a creative thing to, to what I was doing. Yeah. and I sort of actually, weirdly enough, at school, my, my dad had wrote like an album that hadn’t really done anything, and I heard it and it was like a progressive rock album.

And I was like, wow. I was like, you know, 12 or something when I heard it. And, nothing really happened with it. And there was sort of like a, a, a story to this sort of record. It was almost like, and it was, it was set in, you know, medieval times, you know, the Round Heads and the Cavaliers and all this sort of stuff. Wow. And I was like, this is like, it’s like a Prague Rock albA spinal tap, Right, yeah.  Being 12. I was like, yeah, you know, like battles. And I thought, you know what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna write a musical. Wow.

And I was 12 and I, and like I went to the school and I was like, I, I’m gonna, I’m gonna do this. I’m gonna give this a go. And he looked at me like, well, you know, you’ve got GCSEs to start thinking about. anyway, so I ended up sort of  going for it, and I wrote other songs to fit in between and made a story about, it was called Thomas Harper. And I wrote this sort of thing in between it  and I and i, I, I just sort of took over my world. I didn’t do very well at GCSE, but, but I had a really good time doing it. And, and, and it was something that was very new to me and I hadn’t, I’d been in little bands as a kid and stuff.

Yeah. But, it was a whole new direction. And then I ended up entering it for this sort of competition in, in London for like young, musical. Right. You know, it was like under 30 sort of people. And we came like, runners up in this thing, and it was me and this other guy and, it was like Tim Rice there and like all these like, Cameron Macintosh and like these crazy people. And I’m like, 12, 13. And just, it was pretty mind blowing. then after that I was like, you know what? Musicals aren’t that cool.

I wanna be in a band. I wanna like, you know, do that side of it. So that’s when I really sort of started to get, get with my mates and start performing and stuff like that. Yeah. Do you remember the, the very first moment that you got the big, the big Rush, you know, the spine tingle from music? Yeah, I think it was around that period of time, I think, because, you know, like, you know, I think being like 12 and like experiencing that thing, we did it at the school and it was like sold out and I was, I was also directing it, it was like a whole sort of thing with my mate, you know, when there were older kids in the school.

So we were like, it’s time to get, you know, get back at them. Yeah, yeah. You know, but it, it was, it was a real eyeopener and I think it really sort of, I was, I was writing songs, but it was, it was for like any musical form and it was a play and it was a theater and it was really exciting and it was obviously history and it was all that sort of stuff. Yeah. but I think, I think the buzz sort of the first real sort of thing when that happened was like, wow, this is really exciting. I was like, well, how else can I channel this into other things? and I wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t like the super brightest at school, but I was obviously in love with, with music and that arty world.

Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, how do I do this? How do I get more into that? so that’s what I pursued. I table. Perfect. Beautiful. and yeah. And then, and then, and then it was bands. It was bands. It was just sort of like, you know, thank you, thank you. performing, you know, with Mates and it was college, and  there were a few mates. I went to Gotham in college, which is like near Guilford.

Yeah. and we ended up sort of almost being managed by a guy called Kevin Nixon. I dunno if you’ve ever heard of him but him. But he, he was involved with the A CMI dunno if you know the A CM in Guilford. We don’t talk about them. No, that  fair enough. but yeah, it was, it was a weird time. But then we ended up supporting my third gig was like with Within Excess. What? Yeah, it was like random. I was like, how, how does that happen? I don’t know. It was like, it was through a friend of a friend.

I mean, with music and things like that. I dunno, it’s like, it’s such a small sort of circle in so many ways. And  one thing sort of happened there and that happened there. And then before we know, and I was the lead singer in the band. I was Keys to start with, but then I was a singer, so I guess that’s how I learned songwriting. Yeah, yeah. Because I was jamming, so it wasn’t like  I was, I was taught how to do it. I was just, when you’re in a room and you’re playing with people and you’re jamming and you’re playing, you just experiment. It’s all experiment. and that’s where, you know, again, it sort of moved up another thing.

And then, you know, we played at Plymouth Pavilions, like 3000 people, and I was like, this is nuts. Yeah. You know, and, I I, I was just bitten with this whole thing, like, what’s next? You know, what can we do now? Is it was kept on sort of like, you know, it was, it was nuts. Yeah. And then I went to uni up at, up at Manchester, and it was that whole indie scene up there. So it was a really great music scene in Manchester, you know, Oasis. And, and then weirdly enough, the girl who was on my course, I did a media course, like, which was actually a really good idea to do. I didn’t do, do music.

but I learned all about, I guess, you know, propaganda and music, I’m sorry, media in terms of like how the media can influence people. Right. So, and this was a degree level, so it was like, I was like, whoa. And it was really like, this is nuts. I know it’s different to music, but then suddenly the way the world was changing was the fact that media and music were becoming so intertwined. What with the development of technology and Instagram and Facebook, and obviously Instagram wasn’t there, you know, there then it was all sort of popping off, MySpace, that’s what it was.

Anyone remember that one? Yeah. I think I still got mine up there. But, yeah. And, it, it, it was a really, a really interesting sort of  time because I, I, I sort of could suddenly go, well, I’ve got music, but then how do I promote it? Yeah. How do I, and, and, and it sort of went hand in hand and I realized how powerful, you know, the media was alongside the music. Yeah.  And  that sort of bubbled around there. And then, tell me if I’m going on by the way. but  it was,  I was, you know, what was it?

Yeah. So University doing the bands, the girl I was working with on, not working with, sorry, she was on the same course as me.  She was Sean Riders,  like girlfriend from the Happy Mondays. Yeah. Well, the mother of his baby called Jail. Right. Interesting name.  Hi jail.  Anyway. And, yeah. And she was like, well, I’ll, I’ll help manage you,  you know, and I know, obviously I’ve got connections with the Happy Mondays and stuff like that.

And I was like, this is amazing. So The Hacienda, when the Hacienda was there, yeah, we were then my, you know, the band and I was getting really into sampling then. It was like Aki sampler and live samples and things, you know, it was just like, it was like a real progressive thing. You know, I’d, I’d done this sort of funk band. I’d done the musically thing. And So you Were producing the, the records as well at this Point? I sort of was, but I, you know, I had like a really small setup and it was, it was like, you know, cakewalk and those sort of early Yeah. Recording sort of things, just trying to get ideas down. And I had a reel to reel as well, actually.

Yeah, me too. yeah.  And it was, it was very, it was very analog. So the way I learned was, well, you’ve gotta commit to it. And it was more about capturing a moment than necessarily having, like it is now when you’ve got all these possibilities where you can presa every single thing or go to a preset. And there Was so much more limitation and what you could do, but it made you so kind of think about what you are actually gonna do. Absolutely. Which, which reel to reel did you have? Remember? It was a sound craft. Yeah, a track. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had the FO XR eight. Nice.

Yeah. Lovely, lovely. But yeah, there was, but you had to really, you had to really consider what the record was gonna sound like, and, and did a lot more trial and error now, isn’t it? You know? Yeah. And I think that whole early development of not having, having any rules, you know, in that respect was, was great. ’cause when you are like, well, you know, how do we record it? Well,  I’ll record it and we’ll press record and, you know, you know, the stuff that you get up to, you know, experimenting with like, hitting water in a tub or shaking some spoons or rice or  whatever paper or whatever you can find around to create sounds and music to help your songwriting.

’cause you write the song and then, then it’s another thing altogether. So this, these two parallel worlds started to sort of meet where I was creating in a audio way. Yeah. Also creating in a songwriting way. Mm-Hmm.  And it was really exciting. I mean, it was like a really exciting time. And when you know, someone’s not telling you what to do, it’s brilliant. You’re like, okay. And you push things here and there. Not always, it doesn’t always work. But,  and also the music you’re listening to, the stuff you’re influenced by, you know, it’s always influencing you and you’re like, how did that, how did you get that snare sound?

Or how do you get that kick drum sound? Or how do they do that? Yeah. And you wanna try and work it out and is it this, this, and obviously I had limited resources in so many respects. I didn’t have the money that these guys had when they were making big records. Yeah. You know, I mean, I had a, a very small setup, but it was enough to be able to do what I needed to do. But I guess that helped my process in terms of how I produce, and how I, how I write and stuff like that. Yeah. It is definitely a sort of a sort of flow thing.

so yeah, the Hana days were fun. We played there, we ended up gigging there quite a lot. left there. And then it was like, the band broke up and that was really depressing. And I was like, well, I’ve gotta leave uni soon. And I’m like, what do I do? I need some money. I  love music. But,  and then I did some work experience, at Virgin, records, down by the canal there when it was there in marketing.

I just did some, like a summer, summer sort of there. And I loved it. It was brilliant. I mean, it was really good fun. And I, I was, I was actually quite left in my own devices and they were like, well, you can do the press, you can do like the press release packs, you know? So  I was like, okay, what can I do here? So I actually, I started doing, I started making them myself, like, rather than just photocopying stuff, I was like, well, I painted a bit. So I started like painting and doing collages and I’m sure they were thinking, what are you up to? But, it actually really worked.

And then I photocopy the, the stuff I was making, like painting these pictures and getting all these collages and putting it all together.  And it was, it was fun. It was really good fun. And, I learned another side, I guess, about  the industry. Yeah. And it all goes hand in hand now, doesn’t it? Of because it’s so DIY now It’s very DIY and, and, and, and that approach, you know, even though I was in a big label, I was lucky enough to sort of run around doing little bits and pieces here and here. ’cause they didn’t really mind. Yeah. I mean, as long as I was doing what I needed to do, make some coffees and some teas and Yeah.

Yeah. Clean out. I never once had to clean out a cupboard at East West Records. It was literally, I couldn’t open the door.  And I was like, but I got some really cool stuff from there.  Shush.  So you’re still making music at this point though, As well? I, I, I, I wasn’t as much then. Right. funnily enough, ’cause I was, I was sort of like having fun. I’d left uni. I was like, I’m learning about another side of it. And I started to think, well, maybe I could, maybe I can fit in in this world a bit, you know? ’cause the band had broken up and I was a bit depressed by that.

So I was like, well, maybe I can do this one. and then I, through that, I got recommended ’cause they were like, you know,  from what I was doing to a PR company, Hart PR it’s called now. Joe Hart. Joe Hart, yeah. Joe Hart.  And Joe took me on as her very, she just set up, her, her radio plugging, regional radio plugging stuff.  And I went for the interview and I got the job. And it was the first thing she’d set up on her own. ’cause she’d been with, ferret and Spanner or something like that, I can’t remember.

Anyway. And, yeah. And so it’s her new venture. It was in, in Kilburn as well from, and I started, I knew nothing about it, but she’d sort of told me about how to basically phone up all these radio stations and say, hi,  will you play this record? You know? Yeah. And it was really bizarre. ’cause I was like, well, hold on a second. ’cause in my head it was like, well, they’re gonna love, you know, surely the stuff that you are pring you should love. Right? I mean, you’re promoting a record. But there was this, hopefully there’s no Jimmy now fans in here, or Extreme  Jimmy now fans.

Although my Very good friend Charlie did write, eight. Okay. Right. Okay. but it, it was, I think it was, it, it wasn’t the fact that it, it was his record. Yeah. It was more to do with the process. Yeah. And it was to do with the fact that, that when I phoned up and I was like, you know, will you play this record? And without even a hint of whatever it was like, yeah, we’re gonna play it. And I was like, okay, so why are you gonna play the record? Yeah. What is it you like about it?

You know? Well, we, you know. Yeah. And they’re like, well, you know, and they, they were like, to be fair, I’m not particularly into the record, but we’re gonna play it anyway. It’s a TV star. Of course. I mean, it’s, And I got it. You’ve had the best training ground ever, haven’t you? It was just like absolutely everything. It was, it was bizarre. It was like, you know, learning that again was like another sort of penny drops. And I went, hold on a second. So you’re telling me. ’cause in my head I was like, well, surely you have to love what you do, because if you’re passionate about songwriting and you love music, then,  you know what I mean? Anyway,  so I got fired.

Oh yeah.  I got fired. but yeah, the ban called nsync. yeah,  I was doing the plugging for them and I sent them to Wales by mistake.  Doesn’t everybody go to Wales by mistake?  Oh my God. So you got fired For that? I got fired. Good skills. Nice. Thank you. Dragon fm. And I got the call, you know, and the bo my boss was with them.

Yeah. Justin Timberlake and all the, and they were young, you know, they were like, they were driving a mentor, to be fair. Yeah. and you know, were like super, like, yeah. Oh my God.  She was like, I’m stuck in this van with these kids. Like, it’s driving me nuts. Wow. Turn up to Wales. Sorry, interview’s not happening. Oh. So I got a call from, from Joe and she’s like, I’m really sorry. You know, and also I was late a couple of times and I think the truth of it was my heart wasn’t in it. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that was, that was the point. Right. And I, and that was a real crucial point in my life. I went, actually,  I need to work on music.

I need to go back to what I love doing. You love.  And, and I’m gonna take a risk. I’m gonna take a big risk and I’m gonna give it a go and I’m gonna try really hard. And what was the first break then for you? What was the first, what would you say? Significant break, that said, yeah, I’m doing the right thing here. this is my, my springboard. I think it was a, a few little things after that point, funnily enough, the first sort of thing I did was I met my now publisher, Sarah Liver.

Yeah. Buck Music, I dunno if you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Simon there. And, she was working at the BBC at the time and a friend of mine was playing in the BBC band. It was called Saturday Show. And he was in like, the band that was on tv.  And obviously he was my mate. And I was like, well, you know, he was like, come along to the BBC ’cause they used to like be able to get into top of the pops. Yeah. And I was like, yes. And they sold bottles of wine for seven quid.  And I was like, this is awesome Priorities between The two of us. Yeah.  This is ideal. You know, small quid each or whatever it was, you know, it’s like, and so we, and it obviously told the pops was fun, you know, so I was meeting lots of people there.

And I met Sarah around that, well, the person that worked for Sarah. Yeah. there. So I was like, hold on, this could be a good avenue to maybe, you know, music I’ve got, you know, I had songs. I was recording a bit as well. Then it started up again.  And, I met Sarah, and  she was really hungover that morning and I was as well. And we just got on really well.

It was just like, do you want a coffee? I was like, yes, please.  And, yeah. It was just, it was just very natural. And, and you know, I think everyone knows, you know, it’s like, it is like a family and it is like, you wanna work and surround yourself with people that you,  you feel comfortable with and relax with because you’re all doing the same thing. Yeah. You know, and you know, and I think within the community, especially with songwriters, you know, you, you’re sort of all trying to help each other out. You’re collaborating, you know, in that respect. It’s different to a lot of other industries where there isn’t that sort of same. I don’t think there’s competition as such.

There is competition, but it’s a different thing. Yeah. so anyway, so with Sarah, she said, well, do you wanna try work, you know, doing some music for tv?  So that’s what actually started doing. Right. I did a couple of like BBC drama, like title music stuff. Cool. and I liked it, but it  wasn’t, again, it wasn’t, I dunno, it’s a different thing. It was like writing to a thing.  I felt a bit, I guess, locked in. It didn’t, you know, it had to be 30 seconds and then I have to do like a five second Dly, you know, like a ten second DA.

And it was all a bit like, okay, well,  it felt a bit, I guess, I guess sort of, I felt a bit starved of, of that creative side. Yeah. But it was brilliant. ’cause it gave me, actually gave me a platform to actually get a little bit of money. Not loads of tool, but enough to be able to sort of go, well,  I’m gonna do some session playing as well. So I started sessioning and playing. I ended up playing percussion for some reason. And then, backing vocals and stuff like that.

’cause I was singing. But I, and then Keys as well. and then I went on the road with a couple of, a couple of artists sort of around the uk, did some mini tours and stuff like that. and, I was started recording with people that I would hear about or whatever, and say, look, just come to the studio. Like, come down, you know?  And if they could pay me like a hundred quid or whatever it was, I would be like, then  let’s do that. Yeah. and I’d worked probably about 15, 20, 30 odd, 40 people.

I mean, there was a lot of different people. but that got more refined. And I did, started to do a couple of eps with people and self releases and stuff like that. and then I met, I met my John Wolf, who’s a music manager, now. And, he had, has had the Disciples and he’s got Elder Brook now. And he had, he was offered Wiley.  And  I was friends with him at that time. And then he was like, well, look, I’ve got Wiley and you know, you’ve, you make beats and tracks and stuff.

Do you wanna work with Wiley? And I, and I was like, yes. Let’s go. Let’s, let’s do it. I mean, amazing guy. I mean, just literally like, would write like a, like, just, just shoot words and ideas, just nonstop. He’d write five, 10 songs like  half of the day. The other half would be another load. But, you know, what a, the creative output. And I’m, and I got very fast. I had, I had to learn to be fast.

Yeah. I had to be quick.  So that’s, I guess where I learnt my speed. ’cause I was like, I’ve gotta keep up with this because I’ve gotta record. And he wants record now that, That’s, that’s a thing, isn’t it? You know, when you, when you get put in a room with somebody that’s lightning fast. Yeah. I had to step up. I I, I’ve had that in Nashville where you get in a room and it’s just like, okay, we’ve got, we’ve got two hours together. And you go, right. Okay. And, and you just, you either step up or you ship out, don’t you?  Absolutely. And you, and you know, I, I felt that pressure and I loved working with, with him.

And we were, we were from two quite different, well very different worlds in a lot of respects. But what one thing we did have is a sim a similar idea about what we wanted to do. And we were, we would actually worked really, really well. I ended up, you know, co-writing and producing his, his album at the time, which unfortunately he leaked. which wasn’t great. ’cause it was like, he then gave it away, for free. but I learned a lot from that. I learned a hell of a lot from that.

And then around that period of time, my publishers then are still Sarah and stuff like that. It was MySpace and all that. And then Ed Sheeran Yeah. Was, was sort of the next sort of main thing.  And, ed Who? Ed Ed Sheeran. This guy I know, yeah. Plays guitar. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah.  Tell us about that. ’cause funnily enough, I, I was involved with a TV show called, Britannia High. Yeah. And Ed came to audition for that. He was on it, wasn’t he? Yeah. Yeah. Was he on it? Or you auditioned? Yeah. You Remember telling? I came an audition and we loved him, but, but they were looking for the triple threat, the dancer and the actor and all of that stuff as well.

You’ve gotta give it to him. Right. Yeah. And he’s not the, but, but yeah, I remember sitting down after the audition, me and Chris, me and Chris Neil, having, having chats with him. And this was before, before plus, you know. Sure. so how did you, how did you get to meet him? You know, was it,  was, is it, I mean, because  obviously we know that he was like doing 300 nights a year or something, wasn’t he? Or like, playing the open mics, et cetera.

Yeah. How did you meet him and how did it develop from There? Well, he, he had just moved to London. He was 16. He just turned 17. So he’d moved from, Suffolk to, he was living above a pub.  And he, at that time was like, I don’t, I mean, it was through MySpace basically. And my publishers, it was like a, a coordinated attack of something. It was not, attack is the wrong word, but it was like, these things sort of, you know, happened in this sort of same type of thing. And I love when that stuff happens. and then it was like, I picked him up from Sunnydale State train station with a traveling guitar on his small little guitar on his back and his backpack and his, you know, boots and jeans and, you know, hasn’t really changed that much really now, but, and, and I just love, I think for me, the main thing was, I, I heard you need me.

I don’t need you. It was a different version at that time.  And, and I was like, wow, this is so different.  And, obviously from, from spending a lot of time in the, in, in the Wiley world and in terms of the beats, and I was doing remixes as well at that point, and stuff like that.

It was, I was very beat driven. It was very track driven. But then Ed gave me that songwriting thing. Yeah. And, and with my influences as well of the beats and, and that side of it, suddenly we merged in this sort of interesting fusion of like beats and songs.  And no one was sort of doing it at that point. It wasn’t, I mean, that he was managed by Crown at the time, and that didn’t quite work out. But I remember them saying to Ed, you know, look, maybe you should be more like the James Blunt, more traditional singer songwriter.

No one’s gonna understand this new direction. What is this? but we just stuck to our guns, to be fair. Yeah. and there  was, there was, there was a bit of a kickback and there was a lot of people, you know, who, who felt that it might not connect and it might not work. But I did. I had a feeling. And, and, and that, that it was very unique and very different. And it was a risk, but we just cracked on and kept doing it. So I I love that. Yeah. And we did, we started doing some eps.

So just like, we did a thing called Songs song with a songs with Amy, which he wrote with Amy Wadge. Yeah. who he was working with. He was also looked after by my publishers as well. Yeah. So it’s like a little family, really. Yeah. And between me, Amy, ed, there weren’t very many, many other people around. we sort of, you know, did all, you know, did that. And then I started writing with him. the first track we wrote when I first met him was a track called The City, which was Plus, but plus was pretty much made. There wasn’t really, and I was terrified because I thought, hold on a second.

He wasn’t signed at this point. we’d done about three Ps I think. And then, then we decided to do a collaborations  ep, which was rappers and, and, and Ed singing Choruses,  which we all wrote, divided it all up between us.  And, and that was a real turning point, because then what happened was with the, with the social side of it, all the rappers and people that were involved on that record, were also promoting the record as well from their side.

Yeah. So it was actually quite a useful tool. ’cause it was like, we had this music, but it was all being promoted by loads of different people. And obviously a lot of these people on the Ed, you know, was working with, we were working with at that time, had a real  sense of, of, you know, it was, it was, it was very honest. It was very real. They went like pop stars. Yeah. It was like a real underground scene of people making music and talking about stuff and saying stuff, which I loved.  And, that did really well. And we ended up gonna iTunes without a record label, like to number one.

And we, and then it was between us and Rihanna, and we are like, on, you know, what the hell’s going on? This is all independent. We’re doing this ourselves. We put it out through Tune Core at the time.  And then obviously the phone rang, you know,  suddenly every label in the world was very excited. How, how long had you been working at that point, from, from the time you first picked him up from Sunningdale Station to the point that the phone rang? how, what sort of time period are we talking there?

Maybe, I mean, three years probably, right? 18, 19. I thinking, I can’t remember when Plus came out. That was what, What made you, I mean, you said that there was this sense of something wasn’t this sense of something special happening here. It really was. It felt really, it was really exciting. It was like  the energy and the energy that Ed has as a person was just, it was almost like  it would breathe into other people. And he’s such a positive. I mean, he had it planned out, very smart. I mean, he had all the, all the album names down already.

And I said, well, why, why plus? And you know, why, you know, and he goes, well, because it was when people were basically ripping you off on music, you know, from a piracy and stuff like that before, obviously Spotify’s and stuff.  And he was like, well, if I call it plus or Divide, people can’t Google it. They won’t be able to find it. Of course they will. But that was his mentality. Wow. Which was really smart, you know, very, very smart, very, very smart guy. And, and very thinking of the future and how things can work and, and, and in those sort of aspects.

so there, there was definitely a massive feeling of this is something very special. Yeah. Yeah. I love that you stuck to your guns as well. Yeah, we did. And, and, and it was tough. I mean, you know, I think it was much tougher for Ed because he was the artist, and there were many conversations of like, oh, is this like, you know, we, he got told, you know, that, you know, the, A team didn’t have a chorus,  you know? And I remember having the conversation saying, well, look, you know, this is what, this song is amazing.

I mean, you’re singing about something you went through working in a homeless shelter in Angel about, you know, you know, and it was this whole story that Yeah. And they was drawing from all these real experiences and putting it into a song, and it was such a beautiful song. and that we put out a year later then, then did, you know, crazy stuff. Yeah. And then Plus was made, but, sorry, going back to it, I was really worried because I thought, well, maybe I’m not gonna be able to make this album. Maybe they’re gonna pull me off. It, Ed’s gonna get signed, and they’re gonna be like, thanks for your hard work. ’cause that happens. I was, I was gonna ask you, you know, did you have a a a production agreement in place on this?

No. Or was it all just handshakes stuff? Not at all. and, you know, it was, it was literally through good faith. And, you know, I hadn’t tied him into it. Funnily enough, I did try and sign his publishing right. At that point. I was like, oh my God. Like, this is, you know, before it really kicked, I was like, ed, look, you know, meet Sarah and, you know, let’s, let’s do something. And I’ve now set up a publishing company with Sarah. Yeah. But if only,  but hey ho.

Yeah. but yeah, They was, and they kept you on as obviously as producer. They did keep me up as producer. And I take my hat off to all the, the other producers that were asked, because I heard, I know that they were shopping it out to other people. ’cause I, I wasn’t really a name. I mean, I’d worked with Wiley, but I wasn’t like, you know, a name to producer, so. Right. yeah. It was, it was, it was a bit of a dodgy situation. Wow. But luckily, you know, I think what I heard was some of the producers that heard it said, look, we’ve heard the record. We think it’s great.

We don’t need to change what, what needs to be changed? Do you know what that’s? And I was like, whoa. That installed a lot of faith. Yeah. So I’m like that now. So if I feel it’s really good, I would just be like, you know what? You don’t need me. It sounds great. Yeah. You know, you, you gotta you gotta respect other people. ’cause we’re all in it together.  And if you’ve screw over that per, you know what I mean? That side of it. I love that.  You know, we’re all, you know, it’s the other thing of producers who will do it for nothing. Yeah. Oh, and, and I, and I’m like, don’t do it for nothing, because it devalues you and it devalues every single other producer out there.

I know. We need to make money. I know you need to get on, but you, you’ve always, at least if it’s something or tie in a, you know, a royalty or whatever it is. But anyway.  Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you, so you produced all But one, we Did all on that. Yeah. So all of Plus, and, and you Co-wrote seven on there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So what was your,  do you have a particular favorite of yours on, on there that these just, you just go, yeah, I’m, I f*****g love that.

One of mine. I mean, I love them all in different ways. Even the ones I didn’t write right. I mean, it was such a sort of magical time, such a sort of period of, of, of something that was just very natural. We were pretty much left to our own devices. There were, there were some, you know, we, we, the a and r now, ed Howard and Ben Cook, it was like,  I knew them anyway because of Wiley. They signed Wiley. so they, it was like a sort of res, it was like, you know, we had a sort of thing and they come to the studio, but they didn’t, they were, they were hands on, but they weren’t too hands on. It was a nice gentle Yeah.

you know, approach. and we recorded it all the, you know, I’ve recorded it all on Cubase three,  literally, you know, I had no gear. I don’t any money. I heard, I heard it was like a 200 pound microphone or something. Is That that right? Yeah, it was, it was a road NT two mike. I think it was that. Yeah. So, Okay. Well, let, let’s talk about Kit then. I mean, you know, we’re producers, so we have to do the gear thing. so,  you know, I’ve always said that the most important bit of kit in the studio is, is what’s on the side of your head.

Yeah, of course. You know, presumably if you’re working on 200 pound microphone, you’ve gotta know what to do with a vocal after that. You know, I Had a lot on the vocal shame, but I mean, but again, it was trial and error, and you’re right, it is, it is your ears. You know, you’ve got to go on  where, you know, funnily enough, my dad was always like, always mix the vocals loud. Yes. They’re not loud enough. Turn up the vocals, Jake. But like, all right, dad, a bit more for you. but it, it’s right. Actually, you know, I think it depends on what you’re mixing for.

Yeah. I think if you are, you know, more alternative styles of music, you know, mixing is, you can mix in so many different ways. But if you’re going for a more of a pop sound, then you want to make sure those vocals are right up front. I mean, now it’s ridiculous. They’re so, everything’s so compressed. It’s like, yeah. You know, there’s no sort of room to move. But, that’s because of the iPhones and all the rest of the, the people are listening to music in that way. So it’s changed even a lot. Hell of a lot since. Yeah, definitely. Since, since plus. You Know, so, so when you produced it, I mean, and, and this may be indicative of your style, full stop, but when you produced it, did you like having it in the room?

Oh, yeah. Or it’s just like, or it’s just like, no, no, I’ve gotta do this bit by myself. No, absolutely not. I mean, my, my, my role as it were within that framework, and I, this is what I learned from working with all these other people before Ed, from loads of different characters to go, well, everyone’s got different, they’re all the same type, but they all want the same thing. But I learned how to like, I guess try and understand someone’s ideas and they’re, what they’re hearing and how they’re hearing it, and the visions.

And then it becomes a,  a two way thing. Yeah. Where you are like, well, If you see them get excited about Yeah. And there were many times when we didn’t agree on stuff. Right. You know? but that’s normal. And I think that’s healthy. and you know, ed, ed, you know, was, he loved playing live. I mean, you just couldn’t stop him performing  in the house  in between recording. You know, it was like, I just, he just want, he’s just playing and playing and playing. I mean, that’s why he does so many shows. And I think that’s part of his success.

Yeah. Yeah. The studio for him, you know, he  loves, but I think prefers live. so Couple of questions. So I Had to be quick. Sorry, I had to be fast. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. So did, when you recorded the vocals, was, was he playing at the same time? Was it Sometimes Right? It depends on what we are, what, what I was going for. Like, I mean, at the time, I didn’t have a door actually, on between the, the vocal booth and the live room. Yeah. It fell off. so you, if you listen, I mean, on plus you can hear little things at the ends of songs.

There’s even bits I’m going, yeah, nice one, nice, nice take. Yeah.  Got it. I  love that song. But we left those little things in there. Yeah. ’cause it was quite cheeky. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, I love those old records where the drum would go slightly out or there’d be a bit of a Well, Yeah. Mistake.  And we’re humans, you know, we all make mistakes. Sometimes it’s nice to capture that in a recording. If it’s all so processed. It’s a bit like, oh. It’s like, you know.  Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

You can, at the end of beautiful Christina Aguigui, you can hear the click Yeah. Going, can’t you? Yeah. There’s a wet, wet, wet song as well. And where he burps,  right. It’s like, Oh, yes. Yeah. There is No, no.  Listen out for it. If you haven’t heard it. It’s so weird. So, so when you disagree with, let, I mean, we’ll stay on there, but I, I’ll be gonna talk about your other artists as well, that you’ve worked with. But you know, when you disagree on something  as a producer, you know, you are working with the artist who,  at the end of the day, it’s their gig.

Of course it is. And, and so, So how far would you fire? And you know, I mean, there are people in the room here who are producers that work with artists, you know? Yeah. And up and coming artists, up and coming producers, you know, what’s your advice on this? Like, how far do you do you fight your corner? To Be fair, the artist is always Right. Right. You know, in that respect, I think you’ve, you know, as long as you trust in the artist Yeah. You know, you have to trust with the people that you work with. Otherwise, why bother working with them? You know? And if you see, you’ve got to look for something that you love from doing it, you should enjoy it.

It’s fun. It should be fun. And when it’s not fun, try not to do it. ’cause there’s, you know, there’s craziness in the world anyway. So, you know, you,  if the artist says, look, I really, really don’t like that thing, then I’ll be like, cool. It’s your, it’s your album. You’ve got a tour for two years, and the rest, if it’s a hit, yeah. Keep playing it. Every single, if you get a Christmas song or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so you not, there’s not, I don’t want that on my shoulders. I don’t wanna feel like I’ve gone.

Right. Well, ’cause I’m not right about everything. Who is. Yeah. Yeah. No one is, you don’t know. But that’s the fun of it, working it out together. And you can go, you know, well, here, here, here. Let’s, Let’s just stay on that for a moment then. What, what do you think is the mark of a, a good producer? And, and, you know, we’ll talk about it in the, in terms of the producer of the entire record, as opposed to just a track guy, or a vocal producer. Because there, there is the massive difference between those two. But, you know, as somebody that’s responsible, you know, I would class you as the old school producers, like, we are making the whole record together.

You are producing a vocal, you’re doing the track work. what do you think is the mark of a, of a really good producer that people wanna work with?  I think I,  I think it’s very simple. I think it’s just literally just, you know, obviously loving. You know, if you, if you, like I said earlier, if you love a project, if you’re working with the artist, a it’s about relationship. So you’ve got to have a good relationship. Otherwise, it’s not gonna work at all. Yeah. You, you know, there’s nothing worse than working with someone and they’re working with you.

I’ve had many times when I’ve worked with an artist and they haven’t particularly gotten well with me. Yeah. You know, and likewise the other way round. Mm-Hmm. And that will be very short lived. And that’s fine. That’s okay. You can’t get on with everybody. Yeah. Because there’s different egos and different things that happen, and you sometimes just have to let that one lie. As a rule, I’ve actually been pretty lucky, and I’ve worked with some amazing people, from Pete Dockerty, you know, recording the Libertines album was, was something I was terrified about. Yeah. but, you know, it, it,  it worked.

You know, I managed to record an album.  I didn’t even know I’d be able to do that. You know, it was quite a terrifying thing. And having the pressure of the record label going, look, we need an album.  I’m like, okay, they haven’t played together for x amount of years. Is this gonna work?  And it did. Thank, thankfully. But, and Was that, are we talking big live room? Are we talking Yeah, live room. All live, you know, it was about trying to, you know, get, and everyone works on different times. I mean, the, you know, Carl and Pete are like two kids playing in a, you know, room scuffling and rolling around.

And they had typewriters in the room. And I got told off once. ’cause I was like trying to sort out a snare or something, or a vocal thing.  And they were both like, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, Jing, tap, tap, tap, tap. Yeah. What? Yeah, they wrote all the lyrics. They typed them out.  They on a typewriter. Yeah. Typewriter. May I ask why? Well,  yeah, that’s, I mean, but I think that’s the way they create. Yeah. How many decades ago was It? This is, this is recently, I mean, recently.

I know, right. Three years ago. But, how bizarre. But this is it. And we had painting, we had artwork. We, we brought in canvases, and we’d be painting while we were making records and really throwing paint and stuff. And  yeah. It was pretty mad. But it, who, Whose idea was that? Was that them just saying, let’s just do this? It was, I knew that Pete was actually quite a prolific artist. Right. And I think the studio, when I walked into it, it was really, really un vibey. Right. I mean, my studio’s like basically just about standing up.

But it’s, it’s just, you know, it’s nothing particularly that special. And that’s the other thing, you know, it doesn’t always have to be, you know, well, swish bang, woo, hey, you know, because sometimes it actually puts the artist off. Yeah. And they can feel a bit like, oh, intimidated. They go into the booth and the mic’s there, and they’re like, oh God. You know, how am I gonna record? I feel a bit like I’m in a hospital. Yeah. So when I walked in the studio, it was an amazing studio, but it just, it was calmer in Thailand.  Oh, yeah. And, you know, everything, you know, beautiful place, obviously. I mean, I was like looking out the window going, I wanna be outside.

but, thank God I had good air conditioning. But, it was like, it, I was like, we need to, we need to decorate this. So I spoke to, the studio manager and I was like, look, we need to, here’s some money we need. We need, we need incense. We need, we need to go shopping. We need lights, we need lamps, we need candles. We need art. We need paint, we need canvases. And the guy’s like, I thought you’re making a  interior designer or something. And I was like, no,  I, I, I think that’s really, really, I  just think that’s smart.

It’s, it’s about sensitivity, isn’t it? It’s about having the sensitivity to the artist, and it’s like, how are they gonna feel most comfortable? Yeah. I mean, the same with Play of Faith. I decorated all her booth with loads, loads of twinkly fairy lights. Right. You know, and she was like, I’m a star.  I’m a star.  Yeah. But, yeah, amazing. Again, amazing to work with. And just, you know, she was, she’s another ideas person. Just, whoa.

She’s thinking of the music videos, everything, what she’s wearing, the dress, the thing, I mean, it’s so prolific. There’s, there’s a similar thread between all these different articles. Very different. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Shania Twain, she’d be sending me like voice notes of like, you know,  tiny things. And then she’d send them to me in three different keys and, and then four different speeds. And it would be like 30 seconds long if that  of the song. And she hadn’t even written the song. She’s like, what do you think? Do you wanna produce this one? I’d be like,  okay.  It’s like 10 seconds long of a voice note.

And I’d have to make sense of it. Yeah. Okay. Actually, I do like that 10 seconds.  Yeah.  That’s so interesting. And, and in terms of, I mean,  the, the great thing about talking to you is you’re not only producer, but you’re a songwriter as well. So in terms of writing, you know, what do you think makes a great collaborator? I mean, we’re fierce advocates. In fact, we insist that everybody collaborates. I think it’s really important. And what do you think makes a great collaborator? You know, what are your favorite collaborations that you’ve done?

I mean, there’s, there’s been loads. I mean, James Bay, I mean, you know,  one of the favorite songs I’ve ever written called Incomplete On his, his, chaos in the Calm albwith me. Another guy, Chris. I worked a lot with a guy called Chris Leonard, who’s a guitar player. Mm-Hmm. He was in a band when I was like, he was the guy actually that worked at the BBC. He got the Oh, Kick there. Oh, Brilliant. So, yeah. I worked with him quite a lot. great guitar player. He played all over. I got him to perform all on Ed’s records. He just got a sound. but also as a songwriter, he was brought up, he taught himself by watching MTV,  so he’d just sit there by MTV as a kid, really young.

He was like nine playing guitar. You know, he’s quite a, you know, genius player. And he, and that’s how he learned. So in terms of songwriting, he’d been listening to, you know, brothers in Arms and all this stuff. You know, MTV just playing play. So when it came to songwriting, he’d just a draw from all those songs that he had been playing along to all the time. and I think there’s, there, it depends on what song you’re writing, it’s depends on what style you’re doing.

Collaboration  is, is important I think. I think it, I think it’s, you know, especially for artists. Yeah. I think with Shania Between Ourselves, you know, she wrote all the songs herself for her alb which I don’t think maybe was the best option. I mean, she did the first albthe last albwhich  was ridiculously big with, with Mutt Lang, who was producer and songwriter. Of course. Yeah. Completely different Worlds Rock, AC DC and all that stuff to Chen Twang Country pop.

Yeah. And they just made this, and they fell in love and all this stuff. So they had all this  craziness making the record. Right. Yeah. but that collaboration created such an amazing result. Whereas when I came to do Shania’s record, she didn’t collaborate writing with anyone. Right. So I, I,  I think that that was unfortunate. I think that, I think because she was so hurt by what had happened, maybe that she was like, I’m gonna do this myself. And, you know, I’m not saying the record’s bad by any means, but I think it can really help develop songs and take you as a songwriter to other places you wouldn’t necessarily go to.

Yeah, Yeah,  yeah. Now, obviously you’re being sought after by many artists. Now, you know, you’ve made such a stamp on the, on the business. But do you still look for the next date? Are you still looking at new talent out there? Are you just thinking, nah, no, forget it. I’ll just go with the, with the path of least resistance? Do you know what? It’s really weird you say that. ’cause I, I’m getting worse. It’s like I’ve now set up a record label.

Right. So it’s like, my lawyer was like, I was like, okay, I’ve got an idea. I, you know, I’ve been developing artists, you know, he was like, what are you doing? What, why do you need to go down this one? And I was like, well, because I love working with new artists. I love that development process.  And it’s about loving it. It’s about enjoying it. And yes, it’s driving me mental as well as I’m loving it. And I think that’s the point. so it’s been a really exciting, sort of thing, setting up the whole, the whole process.

Yeah. And, you know, the music industry, it’s important to sort of like  create your own worlds for it, because you can, it doesn’t have to be, you don’t have to be told by someone that it should be like this. Yeah. So I reinvented my whole sort of deal process of how it’s structured. It took me ages to sort of figure it out. So it’s all artists’ favor, you know, it’s all towards them. Again, my lawyer was like, you’re stupid. What are you doing?  But I thought, well, listen, if the art, the artist is the one doing all the work, you know, if I can help facilitate and help that career and that journey, and I’ve been an artist, I’ve been, you know,  screwed over and seen people just, you know, rip you off and do certain things along the way, and you’re like, well, I don’t want that happening to them, and I don’t want it going on my head.

Yeah. Yeah. And I’m very passionate about it. I care about it. And I, you know, and I believe in, you know, songwriters having a voice and talking about stuff they wanna say. It’s not just about writing a hit record. You can write a great album. It doesn’t have to be number one to be successful. Yeah. and you know, in fact, we didn’t have a lot of number ones with Ed.

You know, we didn’t, it was more album based. Yeah. now we are living much more in a single driven world. And it upsets me the way songwriters have to try and change their songwriting approach and take out the, you know, take out the intro and go, right, let’s go straight into this and straight into that. It’s a bit like we becomes a machine then. It’s a bit like a factory of, you know, but It’s, I mean, there is, There is always that, There is that whole thing of, of like, we, we are, we’re in an ever-changing culture. Sure. Where it’s, it’s, it’s fast food music, you know, there’s just like, where I was saying to these guys earlier, you know, the average skip time on Spotify is four to five seconds.

So it’s like, so what do you do? Do you fight it and go, no, f**k it. I’m gonna do my intro. I think you can fight it. Yeah. I think it depends on, I  think that’s the point of it. I think you should, I think there should be a bit of punk in there. You know, why not, you know, get in there. Yeah. you know, but, you know, I, I think if you’re cha if everyone’s chasing the same type of song, then everyone’s writing the same type of thing. And then it’s like, well, you know.

So what’s your approach to writing? You know, what, what do I, I know this is like a massive question. Yeah. But what do you think makes a great song? What are the songs that you’re super proud of that you’ve written? and you know, what, what’s the song that you wished you’d written as well? Oh God. But, but what do you think makes a great song?  Well, well, I mean, I think a, a great song for me is different for different occasions. You know, it’s like, you know, if I’m chilling out, I’ve got my s spa music at home. Yeah. I’ve got bit classical. Yeah. I love KCRW, so I love listening to that sort of like, new wave of stuff.

They play a lot of great new music and stuff, digital stuff. But I mean, in terms of, in terms of, you know, great songs, you know, I’m quite enjoying Sam Fender’s approach to writing. You know, you know, I think that’s a very, he’s a young lad with like, you know, it’s quite political, you know, energies there, which Amazing voice, important great voice, great performer. Jade Bird is another one. Really interesting. You know, young female artist with this crazy voice. there’s a lot of interesting stuff there.

in terms of, you know, songs that I’ve been a part of, I mean, Lego House and Gimme Love. I think, you know, I think maybe, you know, what the energy was around those sort of things when it was made, not just a song, but the actual moment. You know, it’s that sort of Tell us how Lego House was  came about then, you know, in terms of like that collaboration. And it is fantastic title, fantastic song. But it’s like, what was the, what was the formation of it? Where did the title come from?

How did you develop it? And, you know, oh, and at which point did you get the rush? The,  yeah, we’ve got something here. Well, yeah, the rush thing was interesting. ’cause when we used to finish a song, sometimes we would walk back, you know, just me and Ed, like from the studio in the dark, through the country. Like, ’cause I live like in, in Surrey, whatever, it’s like little country. He’s from the country sort of stuff. Anyway, so we’d walk back. So we’d be so like, hyped, playing the song, like on our phones, just coming back from the studio, just on repeat, on repeat.

And I’m sure the same through like, you know, you guys, when you write a song and you’re so excited about it, you can’t stop playing it. You drive yourself mad. I’m playing it again. I’m playing it again. Play it again. You know? and, and then you’re like, I’ve listened to it so much. It’s like, I need to get away from it. But Lego House came about, in terms of, you know, of, it was basically a love song. And we were talking about, you know, ed had, a few love interests at that time. I won’t say a few, but, one particular love interest.  And it was getting a little bit rocky. It was a bit tricky.

And it was like, well, I wanna sort of talk about this sort of, you know, express that one. And then it was like, well,  the concept of how do you write a love song without it necessarily being the straightforward, I love you, this, you know, you know what I  mean? so it’s like, well, let’s think about love as something childish. You know, Lego is something childish and the simplicity of building up love and how easy it is to build up with Lego, but you can also equally smash it to the floor and break it to pieces. Right. And that was basically the concept. And then from there it was like, you know, do you remember that, paint by numbers, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. The sort of, you know, again, a childish thing to do, but how lovely and simple that sort of lyric in terms of, I’ll paint you by numbers and color you in. You know, it’s that sort of simplicity of love, but  something you can do. And, and, and, and it was all very, all very visual. A lot of the stuff we wrote was very conversational. Yeah. Lots of metaphors in terms of like, okay, we, if we’d mention the word, you know, I don’t know, water, then we’d think of something else that would represent that.

Yeah. And so Just build on that structure. So it was a different type of songwriting, I guess, in a way as well. and not a lot of people were writing like that. Yeah. In that sense at that time. And How long, how long did it take to write Lego? Didn’t it, it didn’t take very long to, to, to write, but it took a really long time to produce. Oh, Really? Yeah.  Yeah. I think we did it like 12 times or 11 times. You’re Kidding me. Yeah. Why was that? Well, I, I know the feeling when sometimes you just, you just go, ah, no.

Ah.  And so back to drawing board. But what, what was it, did you think It was just, it was to do with, I think, ’cause we started it on a synth. So it was like, it was that triplet 16 thing that I started on a synth. And  it’s sort of like  that thing. And because it was synth based, it didn’t really tie in with the rest of the record. Right. And it was like, okay, well let’s switch that. And then we’re like, Jing, Jing, Jing, Jing, Jing, Jing. And then it was like, no, not strumming it. Okay, I’m picking it.

Dink dinking, ding ding. Okay, that’s good. And then it was just working the beat around it and trying to sort of make sense of what that was to fit in. ’cause I obviously, I was doing pretty much the whole albyou know, without, and so it, it needed to make sense sonically in terms of where everything else was sitting. Yeah. and it took, took quite a few attempts. Not every song was like that. Yeah. Yeah. But, but that one in particular, for some reason, just took a bit of time. Did, do you ever just sit down by yourself and just literally just play the songs, play these back through to yourself? I don’t really enough. I dunno why.

yeah. I mean, sometimes like my phone will kick in in my car and I’ll be like, oh my God. It’ll play a song that, you know, one of those or whatever. And I’d be like, God, I haven’t heard that for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. But, I don’t really know. I mean, I’m always, I’m always thinking of new things. I’m like, okay, I’ve done that. Now what’s next? You know, what else is out there? and, and, and with the record label, I’m co-writing with the artists as well. I’m producing with them as well. We’ve got an artist called Nukes, who’s somewhere in the back over there hiding Hello Nukes, and artist called Fergus. Yeah, I was gonna say, what, so what you, you’ve got the label.

You, you want to, you’re finding new artists. What, what are the artists that you, you know, what, what are you looking for? You know, what, what, what really piques your interest in, in a new artist? Because let’s face it, you can go to an open mic in anywhere in London. There’s so much, and see sort of 20 of them in a night.  You know, what, what’s the thing that anybody that’s in here, it’s like, there might be thinking, well, you know, if there’s a producer out there looking for someone, what am I gonna, what do I need to deliver? You know, what do they need to deliver to get you excited?

I think the main thing is having a complete idea about what they are. Ugh. That’s basically it.  It’s really easy. Expand, Expand on that, because it’s quite a broad thing, isn’t it? Okay. So what you don’t want is someone who doesn’t quite know what they’re doing. ’cause if you find an artist who’s like,  ah, I dunno if I’m going to, I’m  not sure am I this style? Am I that style? You know, I know part of it is figuring it out, but it depends how much you don’t wanna carry.

You don’t wanna be carried and you don’t wanna carry someone else. You wanna sort of feel like it’s a mutual thing. So the more someone understands what they’re doing musically, like with a band, it’s obviously really important to experiment. It depends on what level you are at. But you know what it’s like when you’re sort of like trying stuff out, you’ve gotta go here and go there to work out. You don’t wanna do that one. But  a fully formed artist, even at those early stages, will have that idea. Know who they are, will have that idea.

So, you know, I’ve, I have worked with people before where I’ve thought, well, I can, you’re really good at this bit, and you’re really good at this bit. You can sing really well, and you’re a great performer. And I think you’ve got a great look. You’ve got a great image, you know, but  you don’t quite know your style. And you are a bit lazy, right? Yeah. You don’t want to sort of travel on a Sunday or do something. And I’m like, well,  you know, Sunday, we’re all here. Right. You know, rugby was on, we all came, you know, and it’s like, you know, you gotta commit to things, you’ve gotta do things.

And if you do do that, then it pays off. But you have to keep at it. Yeah. And it’s not easy. There are so many facets to being artist. Yeah. So it’s like knowing themselves musically, you know, and being confident with that musically as well. But, you know, you’ve had this whole background in, in, in media and PR and marketing. Yeah. So we’ve gotta talk image as well. They’ve gotta know themselves. Well, yeah. In terms of how they present themselves. Right. Image doesn’t need to be what you think image is. Go him. Okay. So like, ed, I mean, it’s like, you know, he was a prime example when he, he’ll openly admit that he doesn’t look like a pops like a,  you know, boy bandy type of dude.

Yeah. He doesn’t, but it’s, but its authentic, isn’t It? But, but that is the point. Adele, you know, she’s authentic to what she does. Yeah. She’s real. Yeah. She doesn’t pretend to be anything. She’s not. Yeah. That’s what people want. And they want, I think they want it more and more. They want it all the time. You don’t want something too fake. ’cause then it doesn’t, you’re not, we are humans. We need that energy. Yeah. and for a song and an artist to talk to you, you’ve, you’ve gotta have that.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and to find it is hard. And the, and what you’ve just said as well, which is like, it, it doesn’t get addressed enough. You know, we talk about music and we talk about the look, we talk about social media, which we’ll come onto in a moment, but, but also just the f*****g attitude of like, yes, I will go wherever I need to go in order to get this done. Because there’s a lot of people that won’t step out their front door. No, you’re right. And, and, and sometimes it’s, it’s hard, you know, it’s hard having that confidence to go, look, I’ve got all these songs, but they’re sitting on my computer.

How do I get them out there? And it can feel like a real, like, scary process. You’ve got all these songs and you’re like, where, where it’s almost like you can’t go there because you dunno quite, it’s almost like you’re stopping you, you know what I mean? Yeah. It’s like a wall almost. and again, my dad, he said to me, you know, make sure they don’t sit on your hard drive. Try and get ’em out there. Yeah. I was like, how, okay, so how do I do that? Not like, how do I do it, but like, how do I actually try and get it out there? And you’ve gotta try different ways of doing it. And Yeah. Absolute.

Absolutely. With, with today, in fact, it’s easier than ever to put your music out, set yourself a target. Say, right, well, I’ve got these songs. I’m actually gonna do something with them. I’m actually going to, you know, if I’ve got an artist I work with or whatever, then you help them make the plan. That’s what I did. Yeah. Let’s put it out. Let’s do it. Let’s actually do it ourselves. ’cause that’s, you don’t wanna be relying on everyone else. Don’t wait for the best manager or the best lawyer, or the,  you know. Yeah. Yeah.  And when you are, when you are, let’s, let’s say that you walk into, into the King’s arms and you see someone that blows you away.

They’re John. I see him.  So, So you great singer. great. Look, they seem to have a presence. They, they’re really driven. How important, at that point, if, if they’ve got a tickle of those boxes, how important is  what they’ve done social media wise for you? To me, it’s not, it’s not the be or the end all of it. And I don’t think I, I’m not ranking it as one of the really top things to do, because, you know, it’s not actually, I think it’s very much part and parcel of it.

But I don’t think that that should also be the main focus. I think it’s very easy to go down that route Mm-Hmm. And think, oh, I haven’t got enough followers. Or I must just literally, you know, live is so important, you know, getting out to, you know, playing at, you know, like actually doing it. Don’t, you know, just rely on social media. to build a real fan base. You’ve gotta perform in front of people. Yeah. Open mic nights, there’s plenty of them. You know, go out and actually perform ’em. Yeah. Yeah. Because that’s where you get your experience. And you need to, if you’re competing with, with, you know, these are your peers, you’ve gotta start thinking, well, actually Coldplay, if you’re in a band there, I’m gonna be better than Coldplay.

You’ve gotta have that sort of site mentality a bit weird. But you have to start thinking about that. So I’m gonna get out there, I’m gonna perform, I’m going to, I’m gonna do gigs, I’m gonna do shows. And it’s not easy. No. But there are, there are venues and there are ways of doing it hit up, you know, you know, people on social networks and naturally go, cool. How, how do I play, you know, great escape or whatever it might be. Contact these people and, and, and, and, and just keep knocking away. And if it’s one show, and I always say to an artist when they’re starting out, if it’s one person and they go, well, there’s no one there.

It was like, there was four people or something. I’m like, yeah, but how many, you know, did you, did you gain like one follow or whatever? And they’re like, yeah. I was like, well, there you go. One person, it’s only one. And then it would be two. Yeah. And you gotta start somewhere. And, And of course, like  if you are delivering great stuff, yeah. Then that one person, it will grow exponentially. They’ll tell two or three. And of course those two or three, you know, You can’t rush the process.

You can’t, I mean, unless you’re an X-Factor artist. But look how tragic that can be for those people. Yeah. I mean, psychologically, you know, I mean, it’s not ideal is it. They’re suddenly working, you know, a normal job and suddenly, you know, put on this huge TV show where everyone knows who they are. Yeah. And it’s not normal psychological, and they haven’t built a fan base through doing it. And I think, think part of the process, I think another reason why Ed and a lot of those sort of artists like Ed, who have actually grafted and, you know, Edward gig and gig and gig and gig and gig. You, you earn your stripes.

He, I’ve always said this about, I mean, he’s, he’s done his apprenticeship. Oh, you, you know, it’s, you can only respect It. Right. Whether, whether you like or you don’t like what he does, you cannot disrespect the work that he’s put in to get where he is gone. And he deserves every bit of it, doesn’t It? Absolutely. He’s worked at it. Deserves it. Yeah. Yeah. well I think that’s, that, that’s probably quite,  quite uplifting really, to hear that, that,  that the social media thing is not such a big Deal. Yeah. I mean,  yes, it is important.

Of course. I think we all know how important that is. But I think you can use it in different ways. You know, it, it’s, it’s just don’t let it freak you out and bog you down. ’cause it, it can become a minefield and actually a little bit selfless as well. It’s a bit of a strange world. The, the internet. And it can, you can feel a bit, you know, as Facebook’s and all this stuff. You look at other people’s pictures and you’re like, oh my God, they’re having such a great time. This is so depressing. Yes. You know, but you’ve gotta remember, ’cause I’m, you know, I studied media, so I understood that it’s not real. Yes. It’s not real everyone, it’s all,  It’s all pretend.

Absolutely. Yes. What’s Real is now and here and you Know. Yeah. Yeah.  So, right. Let’s go back to you as a producer. You know what  I’ve, I’ve gotta ask, I’ve gotta ask the question with just tech head now. Yeah. favorite plugin.  Oh, you’re dirty. Right? Let’s, let’s talk. Go down. Stop it. my favorite Plug, I told you I was gonna probe you. Yeah. I didn’t mean it. Literally. favorite plugin.

do you know what? Weird. Weirdly enough, I love the vintage warmer. PSP, it’s a very cheap one, but I use it on pretty every on loads of different stuff. Yeah. Dunno why. And it’s very cheap. Yeah. I’d use it on guitars. And these are always on guitars. I used it back on What, What’d you record on there? Are you still On c I’m still on Cub Bass. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I’ve done a couple of like, interviews for like Real Music Mag Yeah. Sort of people. And they’ve gone, so you work on Pro Tools and, and I’d be like, no, no, no, no, no.

I was on QI did it on Cubase. Like, okay. So Pro Tools, tell me about Pro Tools.  Listen, I’m not, I’m not like, you know, I had Pro Tools. I love Pro Tools. Yeah. But I, and I, and I’m not, I don’t have any, you know, I have, I’m, I’m probably one of the very few people that, you know, very few, but they aren’t. I mean, Zimmer has qb. Yeah. but, you know, there aren’t many of q you know, not many cubase users. The majority of says Logic and Yeah. Trade Tools, but it’s whatever works for you at the end of the day. Do, Do you know what? It’s, it’s, It’s Absolutely, I, I always say this to producers, it’s like, yeah, I’m logic.

You know, people have tried to convince me to go to Tools. Yeah. And, and it’s like, you know what? It’s these, you know, just, just use what you’ve got to make it. And, and if you, a, EB, your mixers with, with everything that’s out there currently, then you know, it’s all on an even playing field, isn’t it? It Absolutely. And, and, and it’s just really the whole process. Like you say, you can have all these tools and you can have all these things, but it’s not about, it’s important to,  I guess keep, keep relevant with your sounds. And Yeah.

You can do that a lot easier now. But, what’s the software? Is it Splice? Yeah. Yeah.  Now I’m not sure how I feel about Splice. I dunno, does anyone have Splice? Yeah. I, I use Splice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Splice is a platform. Tell me about Splice. It’s a platform where you can, it’s, it’s a site. but it’s also, it, it sticks an app into Logic or whichever your door is.  And you, it’s basically, it’s a big sample bank, where you pay a monthly subscription and just download as many, of these samples as you can within your subscription, which is a lot.

and there’s, I mean, there’s just a s**t ton of loops and little vocal samples and stuff like that. I mean, it’s kind of what we did when we had the, the AAI samples and all of that stuff. But it’s there all there sort of for the taking. Right. but, but for me, you know, my, my approach is just whatever it takes to make the record sound great. And, and at the end of the day, it’s,  if it’s, as long as it’s not an instrumental, it’s about having a great vocal.

that’s my approach anyway, you know? Yeah. I think great sounding track, because that’s what people are gonna remember.  Yeah, exactly. And, and, and again, it’s about, you know, there’s, there are different songwriters from different genres here, like all different. Yeah. Yeah. So again, there’s that if you’re writing for a club track Yeah. You know, whole different, obviously different ball Game, you Know,  whatever it might be. You know, bands, again, different sounds, but  yeah. As a rule, I’m always the vocal up and Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely. And The rest sort of, and also, I don’t, I, well, with diploma, I really filled up the sounds. She was like, sho, have another sound in there. but, and it got a bit like, whoa, there’s so much going on. Right. but yeah. But with the process, with Ed and the, I tend to work a little bit more strip back, I guess. Yeah. I think I like the space a bit. I mean, like, like, you know, every breath you take, you know, you know, the police, you know. Yeah. Like the, that, you know, I think, oh God, it’s such a great, you know, it’s a massive, I mean, that song, why it’s not getting played, will it, it’s one of those songs that will just stay around forever, whether you like it or not, that’s the point of music, but it’s just, what is it?

Drums based guitar. Yeah. You know, that’s it. You know, listen to the Hot Chili Peppers, you know, great records, but it was just drums based guitar and some backing vocals, and it’s really, there’s not really a lot there.  And you listen to it sometimes and you go, actually, there’s not a lot there. Yeah. I mean, there’s a Kings of Leon song, and it’s like,  oh, you know, the song I singing completely out tune by the way, Someone like you. Yeah, exactly. And, and in my head, that thing was like so loud.

If you listen to it again, listen to the beginning bit. It’s really quiet. Yeah. And it’s weird. Yeah. Try it out. So, tips for,  again, last, last one on production from me anyway, tips for producers out there that are producing for today’s market. Now, obviously, it’s, it’s a broad market out there. but, you know, tips on for producers, either that making the, the tracks or Indeed that are looking for artists.

any advice that you’d give to, to these people? What, so producers looking for artists Yeah, let’s, and how to do that? Yeah. And just general, general record making. General record making. Okay. well, I, I think, I think the main thing is, you know, try and work with, if you’re starting out, try and work with quite a few people. Yeah. don’t just necessarily put all your eggs into one thing, because  it might not work as well. So, you know, imagine, I think also you learn more.

I think the more people you work with and try and work out of your comfort zone, try and work with other artists that maybe are not particularly  aligned necessarily in your style. But if you have to like it, I’m not saying for the sake of it, go and do like a drum and bass record, and you’re like, I can’t stand drum and bass. But, I think it’s important just try and sort of like, push yourselves in other areas and work with different people, girls, boys, whatever it might be, you know, that will really help define, and also, the other thing, if one of them  might come through and be in the next head, she and someone else might find it.

Yeah. So I think, I think, I think that’s, that’s really key to do that. and keep writing songs and, you know,  try and get your music out there as much as you can. Obviously everyone says the same thing, don’t they?  But, Yeah. Yeah. Are, are you still working with Ed?  I saw him recently. We haven’t. Yeah, because Seen that, I mean, I, I know that it’s a really transient business, isn’t it? Yeah. And, and it’s like, you can, you can be working with someone full time Yeah. For a long time. And then it’s sort of like, and then they’re away.

And, and it’s not that there’s any nev necessarily any kind of like anything wrong, it’s just, yeah. It’s just the nature of the business, isn’t it? Absolute. You’ve hit the nail on the heads, actually. I mean, I couldn’t have said it better. I mean, it really is very much like that. You have to be very sort of like,  okay. You know, cool. You know, like  artists in their own Right.  Yourself in your own Right. You wanna keep developing, you wanna keep moving. You wanna keep trying stuff out. It’s not to say that there’s bad animosity or problems Okay. That can happen as well. But as a rule, you know, I, I, you know, Sean Mende, I worked, I did all of his last album and we lived together.

We’d, you know, hang out writing and doing stuff  and, you know, two months in New York and you do, you become like a family with these people. And then the tour happens, and then the new stage of life happens, and then the next record’s getting made, and then a new bunch of people come in and that starts to happen. Yeah. Yeah. But as long as you’re part of something that you like doing and you enjoy and you understand it’s not, might not always be forever with that artist. Yeah. ’cause artists need to grow and try and do different things.

Yeah. You know, it’s more like love affair, the marriages, isn’t it? Sort Of. Yeah. And it can be tough. It can be hard, you know, I get so emotionally involved in it, you know, it’s like, you know, after a lot of records I’ve actually physically broken down and cried. Yeah. ’cause it’s just been like,  you know, wow. You know, especially after the Libertines. Yeah.  But in a good way. You know, it’s, it’s, it is not like, oh, you know, it was just like, wow. The release and the tension and the energy and  Yeah. Putting so much of not just yourself, but the family and Yeah.  The songs.

And, and there’s just a What been the highlights for you? Like they, they, they highlights with, with various artists, the moments where you go, wow, that’s why I do what I do. Ah,  I mean, I’ve been so blessed with a few, I mean, you know, like sitting down being, you know, for the Grammys, like second row, like there, you know, and being in this sort of going, no one knows who I am, what’s going on. We’re up for Album of the year and thinking Out Loud is like up for this award. And like, it’s just cra and Adele’s in front of me.

And then the weekend’s here. And like, you know, I’m like, this is mental. Yeah. This is weird. Surreal. Really surreal.  And yeah, I mean, there’s been a few, few crazy moments, but you just sort of, you know, and, and it can sort of freak you out a little bit. Not too much. You have to sort of keep on top of it. Yeah. Yeah. because it can be so surreal. Yeah. But I think the media training and well, the studying of that side of it made me realize it’s not real. It’s Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.  And any artist that you would love to produce.

Yeah. Who’s on your wishlist?  I mean, I’ve always wanted to work with Adele. With Adele. Yeah. I’ve always wanted to do something. I Think, yeah. She’s pretty good, isn’t she? She’s amazing.  And I know, I mean, you know, I, I’ve, you know, know through friends and stuff, and we’ve hung out and she makes really good cakes. Right. Right. Okay. but, you know, I mean, that’s someone I’d love to work with. But, you know,  with a lot of this structure, you know what, what can happen is, you guys might or might not know or do know this, but you, you get camps of people.

So you get the artist and within that you have their people. So the management company will have their songwriters, they’ll have their teams. They’ll have their people. Yeah. And it’s almost an all big in-house job. And obviously the people at the top of the tree who manage them,  all the different people within that world are gonna work on that artist because they all the person Making the money. I think it’s really worth addressing, you know? Yeah. For very, just as a, as a reality check for anybody going into the business, is that it’s not you, it’s not necessarily that there’s anything wrong with you.

No. It’s just that we’ve got our family here. We’re, we’re all set. Thanks. You know, we don’t need another brother or sister yet. or stepbrother or sister. You know, it’s, and  you may not be doing anything wrong at all, but don’t be surprised if you just can’t get in the door with some artists. yeah. You know, I mean, there’s obviously, you know, Simon Cowell has got his go-to people for, for the shows, the TV shows that he knows are gonna deliver.

And you, it’s business, you know, isn’t it? Well, it is. I mean, this is it. I mean, you know, it’s controlling, you know,  that side of, of what it is. And  I don’t, I don’t disrespect it by any means. And I, I can see why it works, you know, if you’ve got group people around you, then you want those people in your family, and you want to keep using those same people. Yeah. And if you get a little kickback from that, then Yeah, it’s All good. We’re all helping each other, but, you know, da dah, dah. So that’s the nature of the industry. You sort of gotta know what to give and when to give and who to give it to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In that respect, as a songwriter, you know, and make sure that you, you’re signing the rights of deals and understand what it is, you know. Yeah. And it’s, there’s a lot to, there’s a lot to understand. I’m still, you know, working it out. Tell me about it all the time. You know, it doesn’t, it keeps changing and there’s something else. And, but I’m now part of the Ivers, songwriting committee for the I’S Academy. Yeah, yeah. So I’m sort of here championing all of us guys going like, you know, that fantastic. Trying to fight for, like, royalties for songwriters and the streaming, you know, streaming situations with Spotify and Apple and all that.

In fact, we actually just merged with Apple. Yeah. So, no, I was, I, meeting Graham shortly. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Well, he’ll Yeah. Yeah. So we we’re gonna be sort of like, doing something great. Perfect. Well, this is it. And it’s about all joining together and going, how can we support each other? Isn’t It so much better? It’s just like working together instead of, instead of like, just being so solitary with what you do, This is it. And there are big, big, big companies out there, and they like to sort of use our creativity and go, thank you very much for, all the work you’ve done.

We’re now gonna  take it and make lots of money out of your work. Yeah. And it’s not fair. No. It’s just not fair. Yeah. No, I totally Can. The nature of how it’s gone, but, you know, hopefully if we can all sort of make a dent in that and keep Sort of, that’s great. That’s so great. You’re on the Ivys committee. That’s terrific. Yeah. That’s good. songwriting. Okay. It’s advice for songwriters trying to break into the business now, trying to get their first cuts. what advice would you give songwriters today?

Basically, Don’t have an intro.  Go straight into the chorus. Yeah. make it about two minutes long.  There you go.  Good. Glad we got that one. Sorry. Really easy. of course, it depends on what you’re writing for. it’s very, you know, specific to the, the style of music that you’re writing,  I, I, I think, you know, you’ve,  for me personally, it’s about, you know, songwriting is not just about writing a hit song.

I think that will either happen or it won’t happen.  And there might be times when you think you’ve written one and it’s not. And there might be times when you think you haven’t and you have, yeah. I think you get a feeling. But I, I think you’ve just got, so I, you know, I do repeat the same things quite a lot, but you do have to really enjoy what you do. and don’t turn it into too much of a science, because you can go down some mad road and you’re just like, oh yeah, I’m gonna write the biggest hit song. And you, that can almost get very confusing. Try and be different. Try and create your own lanes. Try and work with people that have that  thing that connects, but still has its own lane.

You know? there, there’s you,  each one of you, everyone can define what they do. You’re not being told by anyone, really.  Yeah. Not even me. Like, no one, like whoever it is. It’s like you, you, you just have to stick to what you love doing work, and, and keep writing songs that you naturally believe in. Whether, you know, if you love writing a dance banger, do it. Yeah. Doesn’t it? It’s not about being cool or not cool, or what’s trendy or what’s not, or not not trendy. You just gotta keep defining what that is. Yeah. And maybe you’re still working that out, but  we’re all still working it out.

Yeah. But, you know, have an impact more than the song, if that makes any sense at all.  I love that. Yeah. I mean, DaVinci said, learn the rules like a pro, then break them like an artist,  you know? And it’s, it is like, there are certain things that work that we know work in songwriting, you know, even just as simple as like, well, how quickly you get to your hook, but still being unique and, and unusual and taking chances, isn’t it? You do Have to take chances, you know? And, you know, for me personally, taking a few risks here has worked.

Yeah. I’m not saying it’s always gonna work. Yeah. Yeah. But, and I still like to take chances now. I still like to take risks now. I think I’ll always keep trying it. Yeah. You make, and, and there might be a quiet couple of years here, you know, here or there, there might be something that doesn’t quite connect or doesn’t quite work, but that’s all Right. Part of it, that’s how we learn. And it might how you is, it’s not always gonna be roses. And that’s the truth. Yeah. That’s the, that’s the hard truth of it. Yeah, Absolutely. It’s hard. It’s difficult. And you feel like, as a songwriter sometimes you’re like, what am I doing? Am I mad? Am I going crazy?

You know,  is this any good? Yeah. Is it,  Yeah. You know, and you doubt yourself on all those things, but  it’s all, it’s all part of it. You just gotta get over your own stuff as well, and, and move on. It’s almost like bio rhythms, you know? It’s, it’s like they sort of like, there there’ll be po moments where you think, yeah, I’m the s**t. And, and other times where you just go, I am just s**t. You know? Yes. meanwhile, someone else’s bio rhythm is up there and you can f**k, they’re getting all of the, all of this and, and you, but, but everybody peaks and troughs, you know?

And it does, there will be, and, and emotionally you peak and trough as well, don’t You? It’s part, it’s part of, it’s part of the whole life thing. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So it’s like, I, I always said, you know, I’d rather have the rollercoaster than the slow train. And, and the music business is, you know, it’s feast or famine. It’s, you know, it is up and down, but it’s like, it’s the best ride ever, isn’t it? This is it. Yeah.  It’s fun. It’s definitely fun. It’s definitely interesting.

Yeah. I know, right? And you meet amazing people and, and you know, there along the way there are certain things that you, you know, you just, you would never change for the world. Yeah. Yeah. Totally agree. Yeah. Should we take some questions from these lovely people? Why not? Yeah. has anybody got a question for Jake? I like this. What’s This? How about that? Great. I’ll work here. It’s done. Yeah. Here we go. Alia. Here we go. Great. Great stuff. Hello. Hi, Jake. Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge so far.

so I’m a songwriter  and working on my some artist stuff at the same time, and I’m one of those people that, you know, not quite there yet. So still trying to figure out my style and brand, which I know is how important that is to kind of do that legwork before you approach a record label. so my question is, so I’m working now with a producer and kind of figuring out my sound and it’s kind of started off as a three piece, which is like acoustic guitar and cello, but that’s not kind of the sound I wanted to go for, and now I’m figuring out, it’s like kind of indie, electro pop, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So my, my actual question is, sorry, I was just a little bit No, no, no, it’s help. It’s you. Please tell me the more information because Yeah. So it actually helps, you know. Oh. To give you Some context, If, I don’t know, I’m like, well, Sorry I’m rambling. No, No, it’s all good. Please. So do i I do the same. I’m a bit of a rambler. yeah. So, so say I was, as, as an artist, was gonna approach  your record label Mm-Hmm. what would you expect  from, from me or from anyone else in the room who is interested? So if, yeah, obviously if I’ve got working with a producer, I’ll have some songs produced, but could I come to you with still some kind of stripped down song ideas?

Yeah. And then you or your team would help  develop that. As long as I know what kind of style and vision I’m aiming towards, would, would that be something you would be,  you’d consider or you would work with an artist in that sense? Yeah, Absolutely. I mean, I, I, you know, like I said earlier, like I can hear songs in any sort of form, you know, with the Shania voice notes, you know, it’s like,  if, if I can hear it doesn’t even need to be a fully fledged thing, you know, I’m, I mean, I process it in my way and someone other producer or some other person will process it in their way.

So there’s different approaches to it. and obviously I can hear that you’re still figuring out your sound from, from the acoustic side to, yeah, It’s harder than I thought. Yeah, no, it is, it is harder. And also the producer, like you say, working with, there’s probably a few producers in here. This is why we’re all here. ’cause you can all CoLab and work and Yeah. but I think that, yeah, I, I think sort of like finding where you are and where you’re gonna go and what you’re gonna do.

Having a producer is important as well, if that’s a certain sound that you want on your record. But the song is also the most important piece of the puzzle. if you’ve got a really good song that you think’s really, really good, then it will communicate anyway. in any, and especially acoustically is the best way of, of, of getting out there. So, you know, I, I listen to all sorts of music, and I’m always hunting for new things and searching for new things.

And, I hear it in different shapes and different forms. but I make my decision upon a lot of different things. Not ju even if, you know, the song was obviously the most important thing. But then once, if I’m feeling the music and the song, that’s the f that’s the thing I go for straight away. Nothing else. I don’t care what you look like, I don’t even care.  And it could just be one song. Or would you expect to hear, Well, I hear like three songs. Has someone have these Five, three to five songs to Yeah. I mean, it obviously it’s, yeah.

If it’s a, yeah, if I hear something, I just go like, boom. It’s like when I first heard, you know, the ed ed one, you know, you need me, I don’t need you. It was like, I first heard it and I went, bang, that’s it.  You know,  the rest was the rest. But it is very much about the song. And I think people sometimes forget that. They think, well, I must have the packaging and the artwork  photos.  That’s What I was thinking. But you’d probably expect some kind of following or like some, I think that comes from the communication after I think one, one, once it’s not, it’s not, you know, it’s not just, okay, got great song, but, you know,  there obviously has to be more to it.

But it’s, it is the charisma and it’s the, it’s the, it’s the passion. It’s the,  it’s, it’s the rest of it. That, that then comes after that.  Great. Thank you. Brilliant. That Thanks, Alia. Should I talk it back to you? Oh, here we go to Steve. Yeah. question from Jerome at the back there. Yeah.  Rugby welcome.  Hey, hey Jake, nice to meet you.

Hey man, I’m Jerome guys. I’m from Zimbabwe. Hey. Traveled out here for the songwriting academy. Awesome. Second year in a row. Nice. I’ve just, do you know Jeremy Loops? Have you heard of him? South African artist. South African artist that’s doing really well right now. Yes. Yeah, He was, I’ve been working with him like the last few days.  Amazing. Just doing his next album. I just dunno if you knew who he was, but Oh, okay. Jeremy, that Jeremy Loops. Lukes Jeremy Lewis. Yeah. He’s, he’s doing, He’s doing smashing himself Africa really Well right now.

Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Oh, anyway, sorry. So are you looking for any artist to Oh  wow.  Yeah. Like, now I’m being serious. Like, are you, to Be fair, right now, I’ve got a roster of four. Okay. So the truth is, I’m not like, desperately  right at this period of life going, ’cause I have to be true to myself and I have to be true to everyone. And the honesty is, is that it takes a lot of time and energy and emotion. so at this particular time, I’m just like, I’ve got to, I’ve gotta respect the artists that I’ve got and I’ve gotta really work hard at what they’re on and what they’re doing and where they’re at in their careers.

And, and the worst thing I can do is, is  b******t everyone.  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, I am always looking for stuff and I, and there, it’s not saying I’m not, I’m,  there’s a big, big brick wall here ’cause there isn’t. but it could be something for the future or it could be something that I’m keeping an eye on publishing. I keep eye on things like they’re publishing. I, that’s another story. Yeah. We’ve got John in the room.

He’s really, No, no, no. ’cause I get housekeeper. Housekeeper. Wow. No. ’cause I get it as an artist, like, you develop yourself to a certain stage. Sure. and it’s so hard for us to cross over. Yeah. I Get it. That’s, that’s the, the transition part. So yeah, we’ve, I’ve got like a group of producers that I work with. Yeah. I’ve got videographers that I work with. Yeah. I can produce work at a certain standard, but it costs,  it costs quite a lot of money.

I know for an independent artist to fund. Yeah. So it’s kind of like, at this point in, in my career personally, I’m like, yeah, I do need either major endorsement or I need to find a good ambassadors kind of deal. Brian, you need help. Be support. Yeah. So I need a little bit more network and guidance. Yeah. Which I will have to come from. I feel someone that’s more established. You’re gonna have to join the platinum mentoring program in the songwriting academy. My friend. I live in Zambia.  We’ve got people in, in fact we have, Kiki is from  Zambia.

Kiki’s Ask. Okay, so who’s Kiki in Zambia? Kiki Malitz. Yes. But who is she in Zambia?  That’s the question you should ask. She’s a big name, isn’t she? No. Okay. She’s, she’s, she’s doing well. Yeah, but she’s not, she’s not a big name. Okay. It’s easy to chart in Zambia. Well that’s why she’s with your songwriting academy. Jerome, give us a mic. Oh, here we go to Steve. any more questions for Jake?  Yeah, let’s go into the middle here from Kevin.

Bruno. Sorry, who is he? Miles away.  Bruno. hi Jake. I was just curious to know how much time you put into kind of improving your musical skills, your instruments skills, finding new things to listen to, you know, how do you keep yourself developing as a producer? That’s A good question. And it can be quite daunting sometimes because you know, people judge you on the last stuff you’ve done no matter who you are. They’ll always look at the last piece of work and go, oh, so how are things with you?

You know, what you up to these days? You know, it’s very easy for a lot of people to, and also being a producer, a songwriter, you, you know, once you’ve had some successes, it’s like, well how do I maintain that? How do I keep up and do this and do the other stuff? I don’t think you should ever let that worry personally. ’cause it can drive you nuts. in terms of listening to to to new music, you know, KC rws a radio station, it’s based in Los Angeles. They have a lot around the world but they tend to play for me, a lot of music that I’m personally like hearing.

It’s also perfect in the house ’cause it’s not too stressful. I put it on, they play a lot of new music. A lot of stuff that they play on there gets used for sync as well for like film and TV and stuff like that. So Digital Radio station, radio six I love. I listen to a lot of stuff on Radio Six more than anything else probably. I don’t really, radio one I tap into occasionally I’ve got kids, so who doesn’t, play capital?  Only people with kids, you know, with, with kids will know that.

but yeah.  But Radio Six is great as well ’cause you get a lot of diverse stuff on there. and yeah, I mean I get sent a lot of music as well. I’ve searched for music as well. I do a playlist, on Spotify for Hotel Shockla. So I’ve sort of teamed up with them as well. And my label sort of  involved with them a little bit bit. Oh, that’s interesting as well. Yeah. ’cause Starbucks had a label, I dunno if Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which didn’t quite work out.

I think they did like one Paul McCartney record and it went really well and then, but I don’t think anyone was a and r it. Yeah. I don’t think they had the a and r structure, whereas I’m sort of a and r it. That’s Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, coffee and music worked quite well. Well, Niro have got their own, they do Self curated. We’re sort of working with them. I’m friends with those guys and know Pablo. Yeah, yeah, yeah.  Well, wow. Yeah, exactly. so yeah, and I like the idea of it, like how do you get music through? So I, I do like a playlist and, and I’ve,  which all get, all the artists that I choose, they’re all new artists.

I try and go for everyone new. There’s like 60, I’ve got a new one like very soon. So in fact, if you guys have any new music that you wanna send me for that,  honestly, if I like it, I’ll put it on the playlist. No, No. Qu absolutely. I’ll what, what I suggest for that is if you, send it to us and we’ll upload it to a SoundCloud playlist Easier than that. Which, Which we can then a better idea. Okay. You can, you can do that as well. Yeah. But what would be better if you just hashtag what was it?

Oh God. Okay. I’ll come back to you on it. ’cause there is a hashtag but I completely for forgot Where was You’re right. That was so much easier. I know  That idea was a lot better. Why is compete for Nukes? You remember what it was? We’ll, we’ll we’ll find a way for you to do this. We’ll, we’ll, we’ll absolutely communicate the way to do it. Yeah. that’s good. so we’ve got a question here. We’ve got one from David Stark as well.  Thanks Bruno. Hi Jake. Hello. Hey David. Alright, Great stuff.

Here We go. Way back now. This man. So we’ve got another  legend producer coming up tonight Trip. I Know, right? So just wondering which other producers you  were influenced by or look up to? That’s a great question. That’s a really good question. Question David. Swap places. Yeah. Come on. That was a great question.  Can’t and join us. oh wow.  Jesus. I think Quincy Jones.  Wow. I mean like, I know he came to like being older in his career,  but, you know, I think his, his mythology of the way, you know,  he came from jazz.

He,  he really understood the fundamentals of great music and great playing, I think. and then to cross over into that sort of pop world and, and, and the energy of what he did,  I think it was nuts. I mean it was incredible the rhythms and the, the but also the feel that he, he managed to capture right Seal.

Yeah. Like the, just the energy in that was just insane. So he’s probably up there with one of my tots and mean there are,  yeah.  Yeah. Great question. And there’s other producers in different ways, you know,  but yeah. Yeah. David, could you pass the mic back to Jonathan behind you? Oh, there we go.  Hey there. so I’m Jonathan. I’m from South Africa. Jeremy Loops is very, very cool. Oh yeah, I like him. so I’ve got a bit of a random question.

and  I’m not sure if you can, answer it. Do you have any advice, on how to build sort of like mental and psychological resilience? I read an article in this industry, I read an article about how much Ed Sheeran has developed like, social anxiety because of being thrust into the spotlight. So I was wondering if you had any advice on Question. Love that. no,  lots of wine. I think, I think it’s, yeah, you’re right.

I mean that, that, that that it, it’s, it’s very, it’s more common than people realize. I think that the, the anxiety that a lot of artists have, you  know, and people can have in this world, it can be very, very, very, very bizarre from being extremely adored and, and having so much love and attention to, to  like literally going home and trying to do a normal thing and walking to the shop or whatever. Obviously I’ve worked with, you know, massive artists in one Direction being one of them when, when I was on tour with them.

’cause we recorded a lot of the record actually on the road. And it was really sad to see, ’cause I knew them when they were just started compared to when they sort of became ridiculously the peak of their career. And when, when, when I first worked with them, they were, there was obviously they, they hadn’t been touched by anything of it, you know. And by the end it was really sad sort of seeing, I  guess the demise of, of their own selves and relationships with each other. And the, and the vibe completely changed and no fault to themselves. But I think just the power of what it was, the force behind it all. And, you know, we, they were locked in stadiums.

They were living in stadiums, you know, they, we, they couldn’t walk at to anywhere, you know, and  any sort of normality didn’t exist. But there, there are, there are, I’ve heard a few people trying to set up a lot more support and help for people within music on the psychological side. And I think that’s something that,  you know, could be addressed a lot more. And I think it’s starting to raise its head a lot more now. And I think it’s really important that that’s happening. ’cause people should talk about it and people should talk if they’re, you know, feeling in certain ways.

And I think everyone’s conscious is, is a lot more open to, yeah. Not feeling embarrassed about it either, and not going, oh god, you know, I do feel a bit freaked out by this and it’s okay to, to actually say it,  you know? Yeah, totally. Even better than that, you know, use it in your songwriting as well, you know, use those moments to, you know, writing a song can be the best psychology ever. Sometimes  you put it down.  Yeah, totally agree. And, you know, with, as part of the, the mentoring team  in the, in the academy we’ve got, we’ve got people that also do like the, the live coaching side of it as well.

And they’re like, just the, like SOS coaches. It’s like, hold on a minute, I’m losing my s**t here. and just someone to talk to and to know that it’s okay. You know, the creative industry, you know, every time we write a song, we are making a little baby.  And, and it’s like someone looking at your baby and going, that’s an ugly baby. And, and, and sort of,  and, and we take it personally. We can’t help but take it personally. And, and it’s like, well, they, they think it’s s**t.

Well, they think I’m s**t. I am s**t. I must be s**t. And, you know, and, and then the next minute somebody comes in saying, no, you’re awesome. And it’s just like, I don’t know, am I awesome man? I s**t, you know, what is it? So it’s, well, well, you know, welcome to being a creative, but you’re not alone. You know, we’re all screwed up in some way, but that’s what makes us creative. That’s what makes us wonderful. because we take this stuff and we, and we use it to, to make things, as opposed to just being grays. there. I don’t wanna be a gray.

I’d rather be a, a f****d up creative. yeah. Let’s go to K Doc for a question. Hi Jake. First of all, super inspirational. Thanks, man. I think we could all learn stuff and everything. Alright. So obviously you were saying you are looking for the new sound and everything and ’cause we all want to hear new sound. So I guess my question is, is that like a production thing, as in like, do we need, does that come from getting a new production sound or could you just get that from like your basic guitar song, whatever?

Do you get what I mean? Yeah, I do. I mean, where do you start, right? I mean, you know, what tempo,  how fast?  It really depends. It really depends. I mean, the experimentation process, I mean,  are you, do you write, write you producing The singer? I’m a singer artist. You’re a singer and trying to work out And you’re also producing and songwriting as well. I mean, it’s coming a lot more commonplace now that I think songwriters are having to actually record their own stuff, right? Because,  you know, you’re sort of figuring it out.

You’re on YouTube, how do I,  right? how do I do this? but I I I think it’s actually a really Im important tool to have as a songwriter, as well. Especially if you’re more, if you’re not playing live and stuff, if you are right. I mean, if you are like more of a singer songwriter, then you are obviously gonna be playing the guitar. And that will be probably where it drives itself from. because it’s true to what you are doing as a performer. If you’re just a singer and you’re writing songs, then there’s so many different genres where do you start?

But you’ll know the stuff that you’re into. and there’s nothing wrong in, you know, I did a lot with artists when I first worked with them, and I’m saying, so what are you listening to now? What are you into? What’s, what do you like about this song? You know, there there’s a lot of conversations that I have, as my role is to draw out of the songwriting process to find out  what it is that they’re excited about, what it what, and it could be really random. you know, with I, I did some songwriting on Jack Rettis album and, it was like, okay, so he was suddenly playing me this mad Italian like, music from like the 1950s,  and it was like, wow, this is exciting.

This is very interesting. What is it? And he just, I love, you know, he, he’s very self expressive. I love all the drama and the energy and the, and the, and the, and the cinematic nature of,  of what it is. And I was like, okay, well let’s approach the song like that then,  you know? I mean,  he’d answered the question and I just went, well, let’s, that’s what we’re gonna do.

So that’s what we did. Yeah. and you know, he’s now six albums in or whatever, and he’s always stuck to what he sort of does. Right. Whether you like it or not, that’s music. But,  you know, he just had a number one record. Yeah. But, you know, and good on him six albums in, and he, and you would, a lot of people in the room, you know, if you’re thinking pop music, you’re like, well, he just had a number one album. He’s obviously doing something right. And, but he wasn’t following no intro and long songs. So  don’t bog yourself down with too much worry about the production, even though I know you probably are a bit.

But just go for the main things that you like and just try and narrow it down. Write it down.  Just go, right. Well, I love this type of vibe and I love that type of vibe. Maybe fuse the two together.  I can’t answer that question for you unfortunately, but, you know, good luck with it. Yeah. Thanks Jamie. let me know, we, We, we gonna have to, we’re gonna have to finish the session, but I’ve got, one more question for you. as advice for  a long-term career in the music business, three words.

Wow.Yeah, that’s true. That was true. Don’t give up. Love that. Love that.  Love that. So, I would like, I, I’m just fascinated I could sit here for hours and talk to you.

but, just really inspirational. And so in, on the same pages as we talk about in the academy, it, it’s resilience and authenticity. I love all of that stuff. Totally on the same page. please, once more. Massive round of applause for the wonderful Jake Gosling. Thank you.